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Comments

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  Joost Daalder July 22, 2011 at 7:58am

  We have one very similar indeed - also very old, though I don't know how sure we can be they are 16th/17th c. Serbia, moreover, was not the only source or place where they were sold: they occurred in a number of countries. Ours came from Macedonia, with a very good pedigree. They are great belts.
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  Linda Pastorino July 22, 2011 at 8:12am

  I have had many of these  (about five ) and there is a difference in the age of them very clearly. I would say I am confident that several including this one were of that age. I have always heard these are Transylvanian , then Serbian and I think a few people told me that they knew for sure and had seen them there?  If any one knows let us know for sure.  Another style of belt I saw when I was young at the house of a friend who collected very early European works of Art and had some ethnic jewelry. I found one published when I worked at the Met's costum Institute and I lost the photo copy ( I was 19 at the time and was not very good abour record keeping!) so then I always wanted one, and they were expensive early on in the 70's and 80's but more recently I have found some here and there that are affordable. I have always sold them emmediatly and kept one for myself.
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  Joost Daalder July 22, 2011 at 8:47am

  Linda, I went into the matter very thoroughly when I posted ours on Facebook, and did so with an Austrian dealer who, because of his geographical position, had seen a considerable number during his life (including examples in Austrian museums describing them), and at that moment he owned one very similar to yours and ours. The cultural inspiration is Ottoman, but the main country of production seems to have been Albania, where they are well represented. They are popularly known as "Arnauten" belts. As they were often worn for decades, they develop a great patina etc, but it would be audacious to date them readily as 16th or 17th c, very old of them though some look (like our own, which, actually, looks earlier than yours!!). Note the following from Wikepedia:
  

  Arnaut (Ottoman Turkish: آرناﺌود, modern Turkish spelling: Arnavut) is the Turkish word for the people of Albania. Arnauts in modern Turkey are people of Albanian descent. Historically in the Ottoman Empire, the word often referred to mercenary soldiers from Albania or from the surrounding mountainous region. [Obviously they would have been worn by officers rather than common soldiers.]

  These belts were widely distributed and have been collected, broadly, from regions as far apart as Serbia and Macedonia, which explains where yours and ours come from, but they are all inter-connected, and the Albanian origin is mentioned again and again in the various places my fellow FB-er and I researched, not only on the internet, but also in several books. In fact, there must have been MANY in existence at some time, but now they are not exactly "common", though certainly not rare either. As you say, they are VERY popular. Ours was a real "hit" on Facebook, with many commenting how wonderful they thought it was. And they are, indeed, very appealing. The dealer with whom I corresponded had three of them, though as he was well aware, two were less good, even though also clearly genuine and early. All in all they are best thought of as "Ottoman Empire", with Albania the  centre of production, but examples found throughout the former Empire and beyond.
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  Joost Daalder July 22, 2011 at 9:29am

  Here is the link to my FIRST posting of one image of our own belt (collected in Macedonia).  I subsequently also posted two more images so as to show the object "all round", and I provided links to other examples. See also the discussion. Incidentally, the oft-mentioned thought that these have anything to do with the Turkomen is clearly mistaken, although it is possible, of course, that the Arnauten belts were ultimately inspired by Turkoman jewellery. The safe - really safe - assumption would have to be that the place of origin for them all would be Albania; that they are definitely  "Ottoman Empire"; were worn by army officers (Arnauten); and were worn - possibly also made - over a large area, including Serbia and Macedonia. It seems very plausible that they were made during the 18th c, and some certainly look that early. An earlier date may be hard to establish with real confidence. I don't think I have seen or heard of any that are definitely pre-18th c. Link: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150190183658049&set=a....
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  Joost Daalder July 22, 2011 at 9:32am

  See also this Facebook link to Udo Gangl's examples: his album shows THREE such Arnauten belts in considerable detail: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1356673892157.37215.169077.... Actually they are all very much worth seeing!! I didn't remember just how good his illustrations were, and how useful.
  
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  Linda Pastorino July 22, 2011 at 2:52pm

   Hi, i went on you face book page but again I could only see photos and could not log in because of my info e mail. So I can not use face book yet.  I will look it up through the provided link. thanks.

   

  I'm fairly confident that certain of these belts I have handled are earlier than 19th c. I have had both and there is a huge difference. When i see the metal and work on the belt and also the carnlian shape and bezels I know that the technique and use of it is more than several hundred years old, especially when comparing to other examples of items in musems that are made during that time period. Foundry techniques and metal work takes on different appearances at different times and it's not just the leather or wear or patina that I'm talking about since these would have been used all the time.

  The earlier ones look different. This is my conjecture and my opinion based on what I have seen and I could be wrong.
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  Linda Pastorino July 22, 2011 at 2:53pm

  I clicked on the link and it says it's not available now?
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  Joost Daalder July 22, 2011 at 3:39pm

  Linda, - I am not suggesting that there aren't any pre-1800 examples. Indeed, I was emphatic that some are no doubt 18th c! I also am not suggesting that some may not be yet earlier than 18th c. It is just that I have not yet come across any evidence elsewhere that any were actually made before 1700, and the earliest dates I have found have been 18th c. So I have an open mind on the issue, but still need to be convinced that any are earlier than a possible earliest date that I have already allowed for (i.e. 1700). I very readily concur on the 18th c - it is the idea that some would be 17th or even 16th c which I still need to be persuaded of, though I won't rule it out, as I have no evidence AGAINST that assumption either. If you do in some way gain access to Facebook try to find not only the THREE photos that I have posted of ours, but also those of Udo Gangl. One or two of his, I would grant, look very early: earlier, I believe, than yours or ours. And I agree, it would not, of course, be only a matter of patina, but also manufacture. I do think that one or two I have seen do look pre-1800, but I am not sure how much earlier. At least one of Udo's looks to me earlier than yours (or ours). It would be interesting if you could have a look.
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  Linda Pastorino July 22, 2011 at 3:49pm

   I was able to access yours but to see his I had to go on facebook which I can not use it due to my e mail. IF you have another way of sending me his link without me going into face book, then I can view it.  I guess most of this type or research is not really done with any particular statement in mind, like reading it in a book. I suppose in that book I had at the Met there were several examples and it could have made mention there as the book was quite old. But that was a long time ago. My own opinion is that I wouldn't rule it out as something that just happened at a particular time. Being that the belt it self is very archaic looking in style and not particularly 18th or 19th c in fact, the idea of it being earlier is almost natural based on the shape and way it is made related to other items at that time, in appearance to style. So I find it not hard to believe but I'm not using any hard and fast information. Its the same as when I look at furniture and know it to be a piece made in the 15th or 18th c . If I or you ever find any hard information ie some that are in museum collections or families from then that would be more data based on fact.  The one I have kept for myself seems quite early to me and then there was one that was sold off, not the one in the photo that I published in a Parcour catalogue four years ago, was quite early in my mind.  They are intreaging pieces. I also I think showed you one last year that I saw in New Mexico. I had offered it to you not knowing that you had one. That was a nice one as well.
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  Joost Daalder July 22, 2011 at 5:08pm

  I can, if you wish, send you the three photos of our own belt, and images of Udo's belts separately, but it is rather a lot of work, particularly because he posted 12 images. I also can send at least one from a completely different source, showing that one inside out. With all that, you would have a larger range of evidence to consider. Actually, while I may sound sceptical about a pre-1700 date, I do think they are all early: personally I don't think I have seen a single one of which I felt certain that it HAD to be 19th c. So that is perhaps suggestive! There were, by the way, apparently also some hard ones of similar structure but lighter worn by WOMEN in Montenegro, but they seem like a different type. The Albanian/Serbian/Macedonian ones all seem highly similar to each other, and are instantly recognisable. Several occur in books, too - and they all are somewhat "formulaic", though there are individual differences too. The Arnauten, originally from Albania, often seem to have worked abroad as a sort of body-guards, and that may in part have accounted for the presence of these belts in several countries subsequently to their use. I have not found out definitely that they were also actually made in Albania, or Albania only, but the evidence for Arnauten wearing them seems irrefutable.